Nananias

yang penting saling menghargai yah :)
tapi personally, im not against any form of homosexuality

respect. respect. respect.

Hehehe, tapi memaksa gereja mengakui civil-reunion of same sex couple agak hillariuos gak sih :))

apparently not buat pihak yang memaksa kan?

lumayan, posting yang panjang lagi. bagoooss .... :D

mumeeeeeeeeett :D

pilihan selalu dateng dengan konsekuensi, termasuk konsekuensi untuk tidak diterima, bukan?

masih inget aja pelajaran dari eke jij wi! :D

memang kita sekarang ini mengerti agama dari pengertian yang salah, dibawa oleh orang2 yang salah, orang2 yang bukan ahlinya.
maka kita melihat agama selalu mengekang kita, mencekik leher kita.
tuhan ga pernah menyuruh kita apa yang tidak kita mampu lakukan. tuhan memberi kita kelapangan, bukannya kerupekan (kesempitan).
datanglah kedokter bedah jika kita memang telah sakit kanker. jangan pergi ke dokter umum, dokter yang hanya melarang makan ini minum itu.
begitu pula agama. tumpukan kitab dilemari kita ga akan memberi jawaban atas permasalahan yang selalu berkembang.
benar kata dewi, pilihan selalu datang dengan konsekwensi.
thank.

yap. semua keputusan selalu direndengi konsekuensi. my point exactly :)

sampe sekarang aku masih agak mumet da membayangkan solusi yg paling pas dan deskripsi yang paling sesuai untuk "saling menghormati" itu. seperti katamu di atas, ternyata buat para proponent same-sex marriage di gereja, suggestion itu sesuatu yg wajar. kalo diliat dari sudut pandang "semua manusia sama di mata Tuhan" ya wajar kalo mereka menuntut itu, demikian pula pensahan gay menjadi kepala gereja. sementara catatan sipil kan dibutuhkan untuk melindungi hak2 lain yang hanya diperoleh sebagai pasangan sah. di amrik, misalnya, emang sangat perlu karena ini menyangkut hal2 lain, misalnya: mendampingi pasangan ketika masuk ruang operasi, menandatangani surat persetujuan memperoleh operasi/medical treatment tertentu, dsb. aku belom tau di indonesia gimana, tapi aku terpikir, ketika pasangan gay mengangkat anak, dan anaknya itu akan disekolahkan, pasti akan berurusan dengan masalah administrasi yang kadang2 menuntut dokumen gak penting seperti: akte pernikahan ortu (menurutku gak penting karena hak pendidikan anak kok harus dikaitkan dengan status ortu). emang sih dalam prakteknya uang bisa menyelesaikan masalah, tapi gimana dong dengan niat menegakkan hukum bersama???? (oya, mengangkat anak di indonesia juga secara hukum hanya bisa dilakukan oleh pasangan yang diikat pernikahan secara sah. so ujung2nya duit juga bukan???)

hihihi.. perasaan tadi bicara soal gay, kok jadi merembet ke law enforcement & good governance ya. tapi kalo diliat dalam gambaran besar ternyata msalahnya bisa sekompleks itu.

nah, di sisi lain, ada pandangan dari sebagian kelompok hetero bahwa kelompok gay juga harus menghormati pandangan kelompok hetero yang belum bisa menerima homoseksualitas. benernya kalo menurutku masyarakat kita tuh pada dasarnya toleran terhadap pilihan orientasi seksual ini na, SEPANJANG tidak diekspresikan terang2an. kita sudah paham semua kok tentang seorang mantan pejabat gay -- walopun jadi bahan joke, tapi toh kita maklum, dan sepanjang kapasitasnya memungkinkan, gak ada yg menghalangi karirnya. jadi mungkin yg diminta kelompok hetero ini ketika melihat a gay couple making out in public adalah: GET A ROOM! (hal yang sama berlaku juga untuk straight couple making out in public -- ada yang bikin risih, ada yg bikin pengen, hahahhahahah..!)

eh biar komen ini panjang gak aku jadiin posting sendiri :D.

hihihi.. perasaan tadi bicara soal gay, kok jadi merembet ke law enforcement & good governance ya. tapi kalo diliat dalam gambaran besar ternyata masalahnya bisa sekompleks itu. exactly why nampaknya melihatnya dari sisi agama saja akan sedikit errr ..... hehehe

secara pribadi, menentang homoseksualitas sih nggak... tapi memang, terkadang suka agak risih juga sih kalo liat ada dua orang pria dewasa bermesraan di depan umum yang mana kemesraan itu bukanlah merupakan bahan guyonan sesama teman.

risih karena tidak terbiasa. risih karena telah terkontaminasi doktrin stereotype bahwa pasangan yang boleh bermesraan di depan umum hanyalah pasangan yang terdiri dari satu orang pria dan satu orang wanita. hanya merasa risih saja.

tapi pilihan untuk menjalani kehidupan homoseksual atau tidak merupakan hak masing2 pribadi 'kan? jadi, sebaiknya, sih, kita saling meghargai saja. meski risih melihat kemesraan yang janggal *berdasar pada doktrin stereotype tadi* tapi hargailah mereka karena mereka memiliki alasan masing2 yang tidak bisa diganggu gugat dalam menjalani kehidupan homo seksual tersebut. :)

sama dengan keinginan beberapa orang untuk dihargai kalo ternyata suka sangat risih melihat kehidupan itu kan mbak? :)

itu soal gimana cara menghormati apa yg jadi pilihan..!!!
asal ra ganggu gpp kok....!!!

nanannanannanannanana..pie kbrmu..hehhehehe

apik-apik ae peng! :D

kembali ke soal pilihan lagi na?

yap, sir!

very interesting topic.
you know, science both abhors yet ably explains this phenomenon.
the abhorrence stems from the counter-evolutionary nature of the behavior. darwin postulated the "survival of the fittest" paradigm in his theory of evolution. in its application for the whole species, a species is fit to survive when its members are actively procreating. homosexuality prevents this very important function in this process.
however, every organism (let's take humans for the sake of simplicity although this behavior has been observed in other animals as well) physiologically reponds to his/her environmental cues. during an immense environmental stress (such as a prolonged famine or war), a pregnant woman may be heavily influenced by this event. she will have lots of stress hormones in her circulation, which will in turn affect her fetus' development. it's been fully described that female brain is different from male brain. however, female homosexuality is not as clearly defined as that of male. somehow, there's a plasticity in lesbianism. anyhow, heavy stress during pregnancy causes the feminization of male brain. the debates on how this event happens are still raging. moreover, since religions still govern most of our daily life behavior, not enough research has been done on this "anomalous" behavior.
so ... the jury is still out on the definitive explanation.

finally i got to read the closure of the unfinished explanation *... kelilipan ;;)

anywho, this behavior is very likely not a choice that someone can make at whim. s/he is born with it. however, this is not a congenital conditon, i.e. s/he does not inherit it from his/her parents nor can s/he pass on the behavior to her/his off-spring if/when s/he decides to have her/his own (biological). this may be a permanent physiological change, however.
sekian.

good points! anywho, sekian is a nice closure hihi

one more thing: so ... why would our (female) body want to have a homosexual child?? well, the child-carrying organism (mother) senses the unfavorable environment for her child to survive on. btw (1st), reproduction is a very energitically expensive (literally and physiologically). even though it is very important to the species' survival, yet not so to the individual members. a person doesn't have to have an intact genital to survive, eg a eunach or hysterectomized woman. so by making the child homosexual, the mother is signalling the end of the line for her off-spring, i.e. "don't have no more kids, my child, for this is not a good time and place to have a family!"

refreshing! you got me thinking!

paparan menarik banget, sdr. sodom and gomorah/charles darwin/obsessive-compulsive. jadi inget sebuah adegan di film "legally blond 2" which I found, at that time, rather distasteful, karena menggambarkan pooch milik si tokoh utama yang pacaran dengan anjing milik tokoh lain di film itu, dan kedua anjing sama2 jantan. waktu itu saya sempet mikir: dasar hollywood, pembelaan terhadap homoseksualitas aja sampe bawa2 binatang segala.

sampai kemudian saya baca posting seorang teman yang menyinggung kecenderungan homoseksualitas pada serangga, serta -- menurut postingan itu juga -- yang ditemukan pula pada sejumlah domba. at that very second saya sadar: sebuah lelucon konyol hollywood (yang mungkin membawa pesan tertentu) bisa jadi menyiratkan temuan ilmu pengetahuan. di pihak lain, seperti yg juga dituliskan teman saya itu, "ada 'gen2' tertentu yang bikin beberapa dari kita homo sedang yang lain hetero, itu hipotesis blum pernah bisa dibuktikan dengan memuaskan." (sengaja saya kutip ngeplek hehehe....).

in response to lenje's reponse,
genes for homosexuality ... that's just ABSURD! why would a species do that? granted, there's a myriad of deadly congenital abnormalities, such as cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, etc. but these anomalies do not let the sufferers live long enough to reach their reproductive age. sometimes their shortcoming even hinders the maturation of their gonads.
however, most, if not all, homosexuals have "normal" development of their sex organs. they can produce viable gametes, ie. they can have biological children through assisted reproductive technologies - artificial insemination in particular. but imagine if this anomaly were to be genetically transferrable in other species that did not have the ability to perform such procedure! none of the members of the species would be compelled to reproduce, thus the whole species would go extinct in an instant.
mark my words = HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A GENETIC DISORDER!! there MAY be, however, a physiological and anatomical explaination for it (PERHAPS : feminization of male brain because of the stressful condition under which the fetus is conceived). and most physiological disturbances are not genetically related. our environment has as much to do with our physiological functions as our genes.

asumsi adalah produk legal. teruji pun argumen yang membangunnya, sepertinya bukan jaminan kebenaran.

"assumption is a legal product. however well-founded the arguments behind it, they may not guarantee the truth."
is that all you can say? why may you not just as well tell us to kill ourselves? what a waste of brain! here's a topic to promote tolerance for us to discuss, and someone tried to offer a non-religious view of the phenomenon in the hope of continuing a healthy discussion. yet here you are broadcasting your ignorance in an effort to stop it.
imagine if people were able tolerate homosexuals -the supposedly most worthless members of our species! how harmonious we all could live side by side. but unfortunately this world is too full of people who have given up to their fate. "those hombrengs are not me. why should i care?" in other words, those homos are different animals coming out of beasts who can't contribute to humanity ... thus they all should just be lynched!
it's sad, ain't it, when a simple ignorance can kill so many innocent souls. but then again, who else is going to do human population control other than the hitlers of the world blindly followed by hopeless drones?

ow okey. kita berdiskusi tentang toleransi. ... termasuk toleran terhadap yg berbeda pendapat kan !...

correct!! and what's yours???

but then again, if you've decided to give up on the pursuit of the truth that's indeed your prerogative. and so is your resignation to the "facts". but this is a discussion, which in itself requires an active participation of its members.
btw, to enlighten you - hope you don't mind - scientific truth is an ongoing process. a paradigm may shift as more and more data are collected and sway the statistical analyses. one of the scientists' main goals is to DISPROVE their own theories. there's no thalmud, torah, bible nor qur'an in science. staticity is disliked, if not despised.
gregor mendel (above) might have made a bold and (slightly) harsh claim. but he's been wrong before and most likely will be wrong again in the near future.
here's my personal experience from observing the different practices of science between western and indonesian. i'm not saying that neither is better nor worse than the other.
they're just different. the description(s) above is (are) that of western science. the person churning out those opinions is willing to be proven wrong.
and indonesian practice however is geared towards job promotion (to get the title "ahli peneliti" or "profesor") and thus the confirmation of a theory is favorable. i have personally witnessed data fabrication to get the biased result "we" (i was part of that team) wanted. it's like when the torah and quran say "don't eat pork!", the jews and muslims don't. there was a good (western scientific) foundation for that. pigs raised in an unsanitary environment are heavily infested with ringworms. but with an increased vigilant against these pests, today's pork can be safely consumed ... even raw. but since it's written in the holy books, why even bother to provide a clean environment to these "nasty" animals in the first place? this illustrates how religously based is indonesian scientific practice. it is SINFUL to argue with what's already written. is it bad(?), good(?), right(?) or wrong(?). well, all i know is that no indonesian scientist has won a noble prize in chemistry, physics or medicine. and i don't see it happen anytime soon. but, hey! that works there! people get the "profesor" and "ahli peneliti" titles and they make money to "teach" in university without ever showing up. They get paid to have their names on the education boards of 100 universities so that those universities can register to DPdK and make money of the heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. and life goes on.
but then again ... i digress.
i'm actually just asking your active participation in this discussion on tolerance ... if you don't mind ;).